DATE=10/23/2003

TYPE=ON THE LINE

NUMBER=1-01414

TITLE=HUMAN RIGHTS IN IRAN

INTERNET=Yes

EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY 619-0038

CONTENT= Transcript for OTL released Friday UTC

THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE

Host: Human Rights in Iran. Next, On the Line.

[music]

Host: This year's Nobel Peace Prize was awarded to Shirin Ebadi, an Iranian Human Rights activist. Ebadi was one of Iran's first women judges, but she was forced out of her position after the 1979 Islamic Revolution. Since then, she has campaigned against the harsh rule of Iran's radical clerics, representing journalists and activists. She has been an advocate for the families of murdered Iranian dissidents. The Nobel committee said, "We hope the prize will be an inspiration for all those who struggle for Human Rights and Democracy in Iran. How will this affect Human Rights and Democracy in Iran? I'll ask my guests: Patrick Clawson, deputy director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy; Meranghiz Kar, an Iranian attorney, writer and activist; and joining us by phone from Illinois, Ahmad Sadri, professor of Sociology and Anthropology at Lake Forest College. Welcome and thanks for joining us. Meranghiz Kar, let's take a look at when Shirin Ebadi arrived in Tehran. She was in Paris when the award was announced and then a few days later came back to Toronto and was greeted at the airport by thousands of people. Let's look at the tape.

[SOT]

Ebadi: [translated] Thank you. This prize does not belong to me. It belongs to all the Iranian people and all the people who are trying to improve human rights, democracy and peace in Iran.

Host: How was she received and how has this prize affected the democracy movement in Iran?

Kar: I think Shirin Ebadi is a symbol of the Iranian woman, Iranian activist and lawyer in Iran, [whose] human rights have been violated during these last twenty-four years after the Islamic revolution. So, she is right and this prize is for all the people that are unsatisfied with this situation in Iran.

Host: Patrick Clawson, how much of an impact has this had on the democracy movement in Iran, awarding the prize to Shirin Ebadi?

Clawson: The democracy movement had been a bit dispirited by a sense that the hard-liners were blocking their progress on many different fronts. And this prize has shown the depth of support that this movement enjoys in the international community and therefore has given something of a shot in the arm to people who were wondering just how possible was it going to be to bring about the change that clearly the people of Iran want.

Host: Ahmad Sadri, are you there by phone?

Sadri: Yes I am.

Host: The president of Iran, Mohammad Khatami, said that the Nobel Peace Prize doesn't mean anything. Is that the way the people in Iran see it?

Sadri: Not at all. I think President Khatami was being the quintessential Khatami at his worst and best at the same time, trying to appease the right wing that has basically done nothing but put sand in the gears of his plans, and has eviscerated his entire agenda at the expense of his constituency that was extremely happy about this event. And again, once again he showed that he is incapable of leading the reform movement in Iran.

Host: Meranghiz Kar, is there a new leadership of the reform movement to take the place of Mohammad Khatami in Iran?

Kar: During this time I think Mohammad Khatami can not do more than anything he did. The most important thing that we could get during Khatami was an open atmosphere for talking and writing. That's it. But he couldn't do according to his promises during two processes of elections. I think Mohammad Khatami and some reformists, they can not do anything more than this. But during reformist people in Iran now we could have a radical reformist. These radical reformists, some part they say that Islam is in coordination with democracy and with human rights, and some part say that we have to change this political system and separate politics from religion. And now I think during this moment, especially by this Nobel Prize that they gave to Shirin Ebadi an Iranian lawyer who supports human rights all these 24 years, this means that radical reformist in Iran is going to be a strong political group. And they can [be more] effective, and they can be leaders for reform -- but not like these [last] six years.

Host: Patrick Clawson, the hardliners in the Iranian regime have been cracking down on reformers over the last several months, with thugs in the street beating people up. What room is there now for new reformers to take action that isn't going to be met with the same kind of tactics by the regime?

Clawson: The hardline conservatives have been trying to make people lose interest in politics, and to persuade them that political change is impossible, so that people don't even turn out to vote in elections, much less turn out for demonstrations. And indeed, in the last municipal elections, the turnout rate was abysmal. And that meant that the hardliners, who have a dedicated ten percent of the population behind them, they could do pretty well when only 20 percent of the people showed up to vote. So the hardliners were hoping they could drive people out of the political process, so people would just think about their personal lives. And something like this Nobel Prize, which gives more hope and spirit to people and says, "let's keep up the struggle, keep going for the long-term," that may lead more people to show up for the votes for the Parliament this next year. That could have quite an impact because if more people show up to vote, then the reformers are certain to win and that will undercut the argument that the conservatives use to say, "Well, if only we're tough enough then people will put up with us."

Host: Ahmad Sadri, do you believe that the Nobel Prize for Shirin Ebadi is going to help make more room for protesters and reformers in Iran to pursue democracy?

Sadri: It will make more room. But of course we should not expect too much from this. This was, as Meranghiz said, a symbolic event. It would be very good for the cause of democracy in Iran because Shirin Ebadi is going to wear this as a chain-mail [protective armor] not unlike her fellow Nobel laureate, [Burmese dissident] Aung San Suu Kyi, which means basically she will be much more effective in the defense of the rights of political prisoners and the victims of the serial murders as well as the women and children. This will allow her to be much more effective and she will be a symbolic presence. But of course, the future of reform in Iran is very much in doubt and everybody -- right wing and left wing -- everybody is very much at a loss about what is going to be the next step. Also, I would like to echo Meranghiz' earlier comments -- we are at a threshold of a new phase of the reform movement in Iran. The political reform, this idea of reform from within, has failed, but what is going to emerge is going to be, in my view, something that we might call radical reform. It is a very secularist movement that will not part with Islam, but will attempt to secularize Islam in the sense of separation of church and state. We already see this in the intellectual movement of the reform leaders in Iran, such as Surush and Kadivar and Mujtahid-Shabistari. And the political form that this is going to take remains to be seen what it will be. But definitely great changes are on the horizon.

Host: Meranghiz Kar, let's talk a little bit about Shirin Ebadi and what she has been doing for these last 24 years. What have been her main acts as a lawyer in Iran?

Kar: Before the revolution, she was a judge, and she was head of a court, and she was in a very good position, and she loved her job. But after the revolution, they removed all women from their jobs, and they said that judgment by women is against sharia.

Host: Sharia being Islamic law.

Kar: Islamic law>

Host: Interpreted by the clerics.

Kar: Interpreted, yes, historical interpretation of Islam and traditional interpretation of Islam. After that, Shirin was really worried. She couldn't believe that, because she was a revolutionary woman. And she is a Muslim woman, who practices [her faith] and she believes that Islam is not against human rights or democracy. And that's why she was really worried. I think during that time that I witnessed, she made decisions to work for human rights in Iran, and she did do that. After a few years she published a very important book, the title is "Children's Rights." And after that she could get a license [to practice law] and she be a lawyer. And during this time her clients were all the people -- some who were killed by the government like [the victims of] the serial murders -- like some of the students of the university. And she was really taking risk for these cases and she was very brave and she would go into the court -- sometime they didn't give permission to her, like my case. When I was in prison [in Iran] I signed a contract with Shirin Ebadi for her to defend me, but the judge didn't give permission to her to be with me during the trial. So in very dangerous situations she works for political prisoners.

Host: Ahmad Sadri, that danger has expressed itself in that she herself has been arrested by the government in Tehran has she not?

Sadri: Yes she [Shirin Ebadi] was arrested, put in prison -- actually, in the part of the prison that is populated by very dangerous criminals. Shirin Ebadi, unlike the rest of us exiles, chose to stay in Iran. She could have left in righteous indignation after they ousted her from her position as the youngest judge and the first woman judge in Iran. She could have left and come to the West and denounced the Islamic Republic from the safety of exile. She is a heroine because she didn't. She stayed in Iran. She fought for the rights of women, children and those who are particularly marginalized. And even some of the exiles are too radical -- because they can be so radical in exile -- they chastised her and they denounced her for compromising and staying in the Islamic Republic. But Shirin Ebadi did stay there and to her credit she won the Nobel Peace Prize entirely deservedly. And I think the Nobel committee should be commended because her this award not only recognizes her heroism in the last two decades, but also it helps, practically, on the ground, the democracy movement in Iran. I hope that in the future this award continues to be awarded in cases where the actual democracy movement on the ground can benefit from it in very concrete ways, rather than just being given to people for as a kind of "lifetime achievement" award.

Host: Patrick Clawson, the regime having at one point arrested and convicted Shirin Ebadi for her pro-democracy activities, then some of the conservative newspapers run by the regime tried to dismiss the Nobel Peace Prize by saying "Well, she's an ex-convict." Does that reflect perhaps not understanding the resonance for the people of Iran that the fact of her having been arrested by the regime gives her more credibility not less credibility.

Clawson: The hard-line newspapers are really writing primarily for the small, and I mean very small, minority of people who are still committed to the hard-line ideology. Because that is a real barrier to change in Iran -- is that we're not talking about more than ten percent of the population. But that ten percent is really still true believers in the kind of nonsense which you just cited, in which you [the regime] describe some human rights activist who you've thrown in jail as a "convict." I'm afraid that kind of a message still resonates with that small minority of the population. That's really how these hard-liners in Iran stay in power. They've given up the battle for public opinion. They've given up trying to win over the majority of the people to their viewpoint. And now they concentrate on still holding together that small minority which still holds on to these revolutionary views after all these years.

Host: Meranghiz Kar, you've had your own experience with jails in Iran, and very recently we had the example of the Canadian journalist of Iranian heritage who was murdered in jail after being arrested in Iran. Is there any hope here for some kind of reform of the prisons in Iran -- some rights for prisoners in Iran?

Kar: I have to be hopeful, but it's not easy, it's very complicated. Because all newspapers that are behind hard-liners, they are related with some part of the judiciary system. And most of them are working together against all the political activists, against all women's rights and human rights activists. So now we cannot predict the future, only we can be hopeful. But it's very difficult. Every high position in the judiciary system -- especially the judiciary system, and some part of the security system -- is related to somebody like Hossein Shariatmadari, the editor of Kayhan, or [the Tehran Chamber of Commerce] the head of that is Mr. [Ali Naqi] Khamoushi. They are very rich and the whole economic foundation are under their control, and all of these are under the control of the "Supreme Leader" [Ayatollah Ali Khamenei]. So, only now we can be hopeful, but we can't be sure about the future.

Host: Ahmad Sadri, does Meranghiz Kar then suggest that there's little room for reform at the margins, but rather that the kinds of rights for prisoners and other kinds of human rights are not going to change as long those relationships of the powerful elite in Iran persist?

Sadri: I think the reform movement wanted to untie the "Gordian knot" and it is becoming evident, as time passes, that the only way to deal with this knot is what Alexander [the Great] did, and just cut through it. The Iranian people are very much averse to revolutionary action because they have seen in their lifetimes, in their active memories, what happens when you have a revolution. So that is why Iranians are very much inclined to have a reform movement, and to this day their commitment remains still very strong. I think it has been echoed by Shirin Ebadi. But the idea is that the right-wing [the clerical rulers] is making it very, very difficult to effect any kind of a meaningful change. Right now the rights of prisoners, the way they are treated, the question of torture, and the continuing extra-legal arms of the right-wing octopus that committed the serial murders -- all of these are still in operation. And the problem that Meranghiz was rightly highlighting is the problem of the nefarious relationship between crony capitalism in Iran -- represented by people like Mr. Ali Naqi Khamoushi, who for two decades the head of the Tehran chamber of commerce and illegally used all of the information that he got from that position, to enrich himself beyond the dreams of anyone.

Host: I'm afraid that's going to have to be the last word for today. We're out of time. I'd like to thank my guests, Patrick Clawson of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, Meranghiz Kar, an Iranian attorney, writer and activist, and by phone from Illinois, Ahmad Sadri of Lake Forest College. Before we go, I'd like to invite you to send us your questions and comments. You can email them to OntheLine@IBB.GOV. For On the Line, I'm Eric Felten.