DATE=10/30/2003

TYPE=ON THE LINE

NUMBER=1-01418

TITLE=Democracy and Development in the Arab World

INTERNET=Yes

EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY 619-0038

CONTENT= Transcript for OTL released Friday UTC

THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE

Host: Democracy and development in the Arab world. Next, On the Line.

[music]

Host: In a new United Nations report, a group of Arab intellectuals calls on the Arab world to embrace democracy, freedom of speech, education and tolerance. Written by a team of Arab scholars, the second Arab Human Development Report examines how to create a "climate of freedom" in a region plagued by authoritarian governments. The scholars also write that "delivering religion from political exploitation is necessary for building knowledge societies in Arab countries." What are the prospects for a new climate of freedom in the Arab world? I'll ask my guests: Ali Al-Ahmed, executive director of the Saudi Institute; Eleana Gordon, policy director at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies; and joining us by phone from London, Alireza Nourizadeh, director of the Center for Arab-Iranian Studies. Welcome and thanks for joining us today. Ali Al-Ahmed, in the Arab development report, one of the first things cited in the report is what's called "The World Values Survey," a poll taken of people all around the world, asking their views on issues of political organization and free speech and education. And of all the peoples in the world, it was people in Arab countries who expressed the most confidence in democracy as the best form of government. What's going on there?

Al-Ahmed: I think people are starved. They are starved for democracy and freedom. Contrary to [the views of] many pundits in the West, pro-regime pundits who are saying that the Arabs are not capable of democracy or they are somehow genetically deficient to practice democracy -- which is a bigoted and racist belief -- the Arabs are not different than anybody else in the world. They like democracy. They like freedom. They like everything that anyone in this country likes to do -- to practice their religion or to think freely or read the book that they want and eat the food they prefer. In the Arab world, we [Saudi Arabia] are probably the most deficient regime in the world in that area.

Host: Eleana Gordon, you've recently returned from Iraq, where you were helping Iraqi women organize conferences on democratic development. What kind of reaction did you get from Iraqis? What did you find Iraqis expressing about their attitudes toward democracy and freedom?

Gordon: I really quickly want to tell you who was at this conference. There were about two-hundred women who mostly were from the southern cities of Iraq, so they were Shia Arab women. And then we had a delegation from Kurdistan, which is interesting because they're not Arab, but they're certainly part of the Arab world. And these were women who were selected by the coalition because they've already begun to develop their own women's organizations. And I'll bring that up because one thing that we're not talking about much right now is the explosion of civil society that's happened in Iraq without our encouragement, just the fact that we removed Saddam and removed his shackles. I think it's extraordinary in this society that's been under autocratic rule for thirty years, that people still have the sense of initiative, the can-do attitude and the desire to form organizations. So some are human rights organizations that are collecting evidence from the mass graves, others are women's groups that want women's equality. So they're a self-selected group, but a self-selected group that tells you a lot already about the potential for a democracy. And to my pleasant surprise, they are so hungry for information. I was worried that maybe they'd be suspicious. Maybe they wouldn't want to hear from returning exiles because the speakers were a lot of them Iraqi women who'd been in exile and were coming back. So maybe they'd be suspicious or resistant, not at all. What I really heard was "Come back, we want to know more." Now they didn't always agree with what we said. We had a lot of difficult conversations about religion. And I think that the question of what democracy's relationship to religion is, is a sensitive one and a difficult one. But they were still willing to listen. And what kept us all united or on the same page or able to talk, was there was a consensus that we had freedom of expression. That's so important. So, everybody could say what they wanted to say and we could agree to disagree. That was a very important uniting framework for us to be able to discuss these differences.

Host: Alireza Nourizadeh, what do you make of the World Values Study that shows that people in Arab countries are particularly interested in democracy and particularly confident that it's the way to go.

Nourizadeh: I have no doubt that what the report contains is that part of the fact which on a daily basis we are dealing with it and we know how, as Ali Al-Ahmed mentioned, how hungry the Arab masses as well as the Middle Eastern people are for democracy. But I just wanted to add something as the previous -- my colleague was talking about the Iraqi women. Unfortunately, the democracy, I mean those who are enjoying democracy, let's say the Arab satellite channels who are enjoying democracy and there is no censorship. What they are reporting from Iraq is contrary to what we heard now. We have to, we have first to understand what democracy means. Democracy, especially on the media, I mean the freedom of media, it doesn't mean that they can report whatever they want. They select the reports. What we see from Iraq is all gloomy, all destruction. Nobody's talking about civil societies. Nobody's talking about the women's organization, which you know, yesterday there was not anything, and now today we are having many, many organizations in Iraq. And what I'm trying to say, [is] that the report is just talking generally about the need of democracy and the need of the people for freedom. But then there are problems that we have to deal with. First, this is the enthusiasm, I would say. I'll use a positive word. The enthusiasm of clergymen in the Middle East to get a hold of power. These people are the ones that prevented other societies to become a democratic society. And then, of course, we had all sorts of, as I said, like these media who are intervening in a country like Iraq, which just came out of the worst dictatorship which we ever experienced in the Middle East. Therefore, they have to distinguish between the pure meaning of democracy and what other societies at the moment they need, and at the moment they face.

Host: Ali Al-Ahmed, as there is a proliferation of media sources in the Arab world, which is cited by the Arab development report as a good development, are people in the Arab world learning to look at different media sources and look at different reports and make up their mind for themselves about what to believe and what not to believe?

Al-Ahmed: Definitely there is a proliferation of media sources, and Iraq, for example, now there is over one hundred newspapers after Saddam fell. In Saudi Arabia there are only eight. The problem is with the Arab media, the major players are owned by authoritarian regimes. Al-Arabiya is owned by Saudi Arabia. MBC is owned by Saudi Arabia. Al-Jazeera is owned by Qatar. And all of these regimes that own these -- Asharq Al-Awsat, for example is owned by a Saudi prince. All of these major Arab media sources are owned by these people who are not democratic. They are using the democratic environment sometimes, in Iraq too, to further their own agenda. That's why you see Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya reporting or inciting at many times. And I've followed it personally. The incitement is very clear in Al-Jazeera especially. In Al-Arabiya I don't see it, but…

Host: Incitement to what?

Al-Ahmed: Incitement against the U.S. forces, against stability. And for violence in Iraq against, even sometimes against other Iraqis. The problem is not only that we have media sources, but who owns them? Is it the democratic force that owns them? I hope that Iraq will be able to produce a really nice satellite station that will report. And I think if they do a professional job, they will be able to rival Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya who have used a huge amount of money to operate.

Host: Eleana Gordon, the flip-side of the question of desire for democracy is an intolerance of authoritarian regimes. Ali Al-Ahmed has brought up the issue of authoritarian regimes here. In the Human Development Report there, another part of the study cited that people in Arab countries have very little tolerance for authoritarian regimes and politics. In the seminars that you were involved in in Iraq, when the people were expressing what kind of government they would like to see developed, is there, after Saddam, any taste for, any longing for the authoritarian past?

Gordon: I think it's actually a very complex situation. I think on the one hand, people want freedom, but people are also afraid of chaos, afraid of disorder, and the enemies of democracy are using that. And they're saying, "Democracy is chaos." "Democracy is what you're living right now in Iraq where people are being blown up." That's not what democracy is, but that's what they're telling them. Or, democracy, the leaders, when they would go and loot, they would say, "Oh this is democracy, we can take what we want." And so I don't think it's as simple as people just not wanting authoritarian rule. I think people are suspicious. I think people want accountability, they want to be involved. I'll give you an example again. At the conference, the local community in Hilla, where the conference took place, was very suspicious about it. Who's organizing this conference? Why aren't we included? Everybody wanted to be in it. They don't necessarily understand that you can't include everybody or it falls apart. So, these are some of the stages of adaptation that we're going to have to go through. I don't think they have a full understanding of the social contract, that you have to have representatives. You can't all be involved in government. And when you have your representatives, that means that for a couple of years, you're going to be maybe doing things that you don't agree with. That doesn't mean it's not a democracy. It's just, that's kind of the way the game is played. It just means you have a chance to kick your government out after a few years. So, there's a period or there's a learning process that has to occur from a point where people all want freedom. They all want influence over what their government does, but understanding how a democratic system works to produce that.

Host: Alireza Nourizadeh, do authoritarian governments in the regime use this threat that any reform or change might bring chaos to try to discourage people from embracing change?

Nourizadeh: Absolutely, in the case of Iran, for instance, or a Southern Arabic country. But what is shown on Arabian television about the changes in Iraq, it's all negative. Al-arul network daily reports from Iraq and all the reports have got something bad in them: something about the chaos, something about, you know, the suffering of Iraqi people because of the occupation, while they don't show anything about the joy and happiness of the Iraqi people because they managed to get rid of Saddam Hussein. And there is one thing I want to add to what Ali Al-Ahmed said. You know, the authoritarian regimes in the area, some of them corrupt, it is very difficult to turn those societies to democracies by just dictating something or bringing the changes in one day. It's impossible. You cannot do that because the people are not ready for it. But I believe the process of democracy is a long-term process. As Eleana mentioned, we have to have civil society. For instance, in Iran we do have these civil societies. I mean, they are the ones we see active. They are the ones who bring the students to the streets. And we should have those non-governmental organizations, more and more and more in the Arab world in order to be able to reach the target point which is the democracy. I mean, it cannot come within by pressure from the United States or other countries. But it is something which gradually the society has to adopt itself to gain it.

Host: Ali Al-Ahmed, on that point the Human Development in the Arab World report from the U-N does stress time and again that for democracy to succeed in the Arab world, it has to come from within. What's happening in the Arab world to develop those things within?

Al-Ahmed: Well it must come from within, but, you know, a very important note here to say is last year, the first report was produced or revealed in the Arab League in Cairo. This year, no government in the Arab world was willing to accept that report and take it and then people had to release the report in Jordan in a hotel room. The governments in the area are not willing to embrace this United Nations report. They are not even willing to address this minor or very open general report. The problem is we have in the Arab world governments either controlled by families, tribes, parties or sometimes military juntas. They don't want to share power and they will do anything to undermine that. They will pretend to be democratic, pro-Western, and they will play the West against their own people until the Arab government listens to an embrace and meets and receive those offers of the report. Then, we can talk about change. Another thing that I would like to [mention], one of the negative parts of the report, in my opinion, it was limited. The authors of the report were limited to one region of the Arab world, which is the Levant, Egypt and the Levant area. We didn't see anybody from the Gulf States, from Iraq.

Host: You mean scholars involved.

Al-Ahmed: Yes, scholars involved. That was very clear when I read it and I said let me see who has written that report and none were from Morocco or from the Gulf States or Iraq.

Host: And how would that have changed the report to have that perspective in?

Al-Ahmed: Because I think if you are from the Gulf or from Saudi Arabia, for example, you would be able to inject more information, that is, you can broaden the problem area and you can, there are problems that you find in the Gulf that you don't find in Morocco or you find in Iraq you don't find in Egypt. So we need all opinions. If it's about the Arab world, we have to include all the Arabs in it. I think there is a little bit of a slant to the Palestinian issue more than -- there is a huge problem in Egypt and Libya and Saudi Arabia and Iraq obviously, Saudi Arabia, the biggest problem. So I think it has to be more representative in the future.

Host: Well Eleana Gordon, one of the issues that you mentioned earlier, is also in the report, the idea that according to human development report that "Pure religion needs to be delivered from political exploitation." What kind of debates are going on in Iraq right now about the role for religion and religious leaders within the society and the government of Iraq?

Gordon: A lot of debate. First of all, Iraq is a very religious society. Particularly, I would think most of Iraq. And so, what Iraqis don't want to hear is that democracy is a rejection of religion. And I think that's one of the fears that anti-democratic forces are exploiting. So, if you have a conversation about separation of religion and state, that's a very difficult conversation to have because there's so much fear and emotion in it. At this conference one of the women who was speaking talked about the need for separation of religion and politics. And that was a mistake because religious women heard, "you're telling me that if I'm religious I can't be involved in politics." And of course that's not what she meant. And so we need a very long process of discussing what really that means, to separate religion and state. And that it's not against religion. It's actually a means of strengthening religion and it needs to come from religious voices to explain that this protects religion as much as it protects politics.

Ali Al-Ahmed: I think I can say it another way, which is the fact that we freed religion from state control. And that's what we did. I think if people hear that, they will be more receptive. In the Arab world, religions are controlled by the state.

Host: Alireza Nourizadeh, is that the answer to make that point.

Nourizadeh: No. I don't think in all countries the religion is controlled by the government, by the state. You have, for instance, I'll give you an example, in Kuwait, for instance, the leader of Kuwait, in one of his speeches, I think it was four years ago, five years ago, he demanded that the right of women for being elected and also participating in elections should be guaranteed by the parliament. The parliament refused that because it was under the control of a certain religious leader. And therefore it is not always the government who makes the decision. The religious establishment in some of the countries is stronger than the government itself. And the problem is in most of these countries, those religious leaders, they translate the secularism to masses as something against their belief, against Islam, against God, against Mohammed. And that is the understanding of the masses, the understanding of some people that if they have democracy that meant that their children would be out of their control and they can do whatever they want. That's another problem. We have to explain to those societies and it has to be done by people like Ali Al-Ahmed, by the intellectuals. They have to explain to the people what democracy means. It is not the separation of a state from the church or from the mosque that would mean you are going to destroy all the mosques and you are going to take a position against religion.

Host: Ali Al-Ahmed, is that argument successful with people, say, in Saudi Arabia, that to adopt democracy is going to lead to injury to the religion?

Al-Ahmed: I think there are a lot of people. The government itself, actually, is pushing that sentiment. "Democracy means that we are going to lose our values and traditions and religion" and so on. And government clerics are saying that. Just a few days ago they said that the right of protest is anti-Islamic, it's Western and it's an infidel act and so on. It gives women the freedom to speak out. And they use that. Now, in Saudi Arabia at least, everybody across society, they want democracy. Even those religious forces.

Host: I'm afraid that's going to have to be the last word because we're out of time for today. I'd like to thank my guests: Eleana Gordon of the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies; Ali Al-Ahmed of the Saudi Institute, and joining us by phone from London, Alireza Nourizadeh, of the Center for Arab-Iranian Studies. Before we go I'd like to invite you to send us your questions or comments at ontheline@ibb.gov For On the Line, I'm Eric Felten.