DATE=04/16/02

TYPE=INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

TITLE=MICHAEL RUBNER, MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY

NUMBER=3-133

BYLINE= RAY KOUGUELL

DATELINE=WASHINGTON

INTERNET=

VOA INTERVIEW WITH MICHAEL RUBNER,

MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY

BY VOA'S RAY KOUGUELL - APRIL 16, 2002

INTRO: U-S Secretary of State Colin Powell thinks a Middle East conference held at the foreign minister level could be the way to re-start talks aimed at ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Mr. Powell's suggestion is an apparent attempt to work around Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's insistence that Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat be excluded. Professor Michael Rubner (Roob-Ner) of Michigan State University is a nationally recognized expert on the Middle East. He told VOA NewsNow's Ray Kouguell Secretary's Powell's proposal has some problems

MR. RUBNER: First of all, by suggesting that the meeting be held at the foreign ministers level, that means that one of the key, principal potential negotiators, Yasser Arafat, the elected representative of the Palestinians, is going to be omitted. This is really unfortunate, because his approval and his presence really needs to be there in order to legitimize any kind of an agreement that may be reached. And furthermore, it's very regrettable, because now Powell is really following Sharon's lead. Sharon made it clear that he will not meet with Arafat and suggested alternative Palestinian leaders. And now Powell seems to be following the Israeli lead, which really reinforces the image and perception in the Middle East that the United States is in the pocket of Israel.

MR. KOUGUELL: How does this work out then ultimately?

MR. RUBNER: It seems to me that the only viable solution really is to have, eventually, direct negotiation with the assistance of the United States. And not necessarily a Madrid-type conference. Because we tend to forget that when the Madrid Conference convened in 1991, shortly after the end of the Gulf War, the conference itself lasted a few days, there were speeches made by representatives of several Arab countries as well as the Palestinians and the Israelis, but the real negotiation that really led to the Oslo Accords were not part of the Madrid Conference at all. So I don't believe that a plenary conference, with representatives of several Arab countries and including the Palestinians and Israelis, is going to yield any fruitful results.

MR. KOUGUELL: There are some charges, or allegations at any rate, that Israel's military strategy in this whole thing is making things worse and that it is breaking all the rules of international law. How do you respond to that?

MR. RUBNER: Well, in two parts. In terms of making things worse, I would say that the Israeli military operation has really not achieved its intended objective. Instead of destroying any so-called terrorist infrastructure, the Israeli maneuvers and occupation and the moves that they have taken in the last 17 days in the West Bank really tends to radicalize more moderate elements in the Palestinian camp who find the situation absolutely intolerable. And furthermore, instead of de-legitimizing the leadership of Yasser Arafat, it has really enhanced his stature. So, in that sense, the policy has been imprudent.

In terms of violations of international law, yes, there are violations of international law, of course, in the sense that there is very little respect for noncombatant civilians, there are violations of the Geneva Conventions. It is very, very problematic. The collective punishment inflicted on Palestinians is very regrettable. So is the whole issue of detaining 3,000 to 5,000 Palestinians without access to attorneys and any kind of legal assistance.

On the other hand, we have also seen problematic behavior on the Palestinian side, which does not seem to strictly observe the obligations assumed under the Oslo Accords and other accords that resulted from it which are obligatory under international law.

MR. KOUGUELL: And Israeli Prime Minister Sharon has told President Bush Israeli troops will be leaving the West Bank towns of Jenin and Nablus within a week. Is this fast enough for the Palestinians, do you think?

MR. RUBNER: No, absolutely not. The Palestinians have demanded consistently that the occupation cease and desist immediately. And it seems to me that what is happening is that Sharon is dragging the redeployment out as long as possible, and he said also that it will not be total and complete even after a week, because Bethlehem and Ramallah apparently will still be occupied by the Israel Defense Forces. So that is really, again, a problem that is going to delay and defer rather than accelerate the peace process.

HOST: Michigan State University Professor, Michael Rubner. He spoke to VOA News Now's Ray Kouguell.

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